The BetFair crisis board meeting was a total invention of the Daily Mail, but the PR debacle is real.

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Mark Iverson&#8217-s take

Racing UK discussion on the BetFair Premium Charges

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A list of the Betfair forum threads about the new premium charges.

A FaceBook group has been created to protest the new BetFair premium charges.

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56 thoughts on “The BetFair crisis board meeting was a total invention of the Daily Mail, but the PR debacle is real.

  1. Adonis said:

    The betfair vernacular for the “trading” process is “greening up”, so that the client sees a profit (ie: green numbers) for EVERY eventuality, BEFORE the Event is actually decided. Since its inception, betfair has a track record of extolling this type of client, calling them “Sharp Minds” and ensuring that they (They??) made most benefits of the entire Clientele. They were seen as perhaps the ONLY source of liquidity and  they became betfair demigods in ther own right. Commission is paid only on the nett profit from such trading activity, NOT on the “turnover”!

    In 2004, I created waves on the betfair “forum” by postulating (it was only, at that Time, an hypothesis!) that this betfair-consecrated and betfair-encouraged process of “greening up” was actually discreetly abstracting a proportion of Clients’ wagers (think of it as an inherrent Tax!)

    In un-auditable fashion.

    I called the missing money “Destination Invariant Funds” meaning that once “greened up” the money so collected was NO LONGER DEPENDENT on the Event outcome, even though the Event itself was still undecided. I particularly criticised betfair for continuing the myth that the ONLY “charge” that would be levied on their Client funds was the betfair commission. Furthermore, there was NO WAY in which the proportion of such Abstracted Funds could be assessed – a “feature” which continues TO THIS DAY. I postulated that this levy might be as much as 30% of the sum “matched” shown on their routine betting pages; that it might be BIGGER than the amount of money remaining as Result-Dependent!

    I gave examples, at the Time, of how it was ENTIRELY possible that huge amounts could be shown as “matched”, whilst the actual amount which would be distributed to punters who correctly wagered on the Event Result might be (relatively) trivial. So, in theory at least, it can be that the sums published as “matched” (with the inference that this is the sum of all Event Result-dependent wagers, which it ISN’T!) are actually irrelevant and also actually meaningless to a punter (or even a Regulator, IMHO!) Neither does it betray the percentage of inherrent levy which the aforesaid abstractions represent.

    In short, a Client cannot determine what proportion of his money (which he puts up as an offer to bet or lay) will be abstracted by these “Sharp Minds”.

    The punter is encouraged to believe that he is betting on a “Person-to-Person betting exchange (TV advertising cementing this too…..) but – as betfair admitted in the aftermath of its last Client PR scandal (the “skimming affair”) – betfair are, in fact, licenced bookmakers, and feel perfectly entitled to not only allow some of its Clientele to trade in that manner, but also to trade in that manner, ITSELF.

    …….With  the added attraction of effectively suspending competing bet/lay matches between Clients, whilst betfair itself arranged complex matching – which also provided the opportunity to abstract funds AT NO RISK TO BETFAIR. (Betfair spokespeoples’ words….not mine!!!!)

    The ONLY way to ensure that such matches can be done at no risk is to effectively “freeze the clock”.

    I think that there is little remaining doubt that “freezing the clock” can generally be reduced (logically) to, at the very least, a degeneration of Betting Integrity standards, and – in the wrong hands – an open invitation, or even “passport” to fraudulent practices.

    .

    …… I was barred from discussing such things on the betfair organ, in 2005.

    Others followed me.

    In 2008, betfair closed my account. And refused to cite any detailed reason for that closure, or provide any form of arbitration process which would enable me to remain using what was (then at least!) an effective Virtual Monopoly in that form of wagering.

    So…….. I am like the proverbial dog with two tails at betfair’s current discomfort.

    I owe them NO loyalty at all.

    They owe me (IMHO) apology and recompense for treating me as they did, and I will pursue AT ALL TIMES every opportunity to highlight their (IMHO) flagrant disregard for some Betting Integrity issues, directly, with the British Gambling Commission.

    (As a matter of course, I routinely inform betfair when I submit my observations, opinions and recommendations to the Gambling Commission. I relish them seeing the course which their actions impose.)

    .

    So…. dear betfair, as a former “forum” poster and former Customer my message is short and sweet:

    You made your bed; now go and lie on it!

    Revenge is a dish best served cold, and right now, it’s more appetising than the coldest ice cream!

    .

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  2. Medemi said:

    Betfair’s customer base are the easiest people in the world to take advantage of. You have those who team up with the exchange (in their minds) and form a symbiotic relationship, happily exploiting any loopholes betfair provide. And there is this other large group of gamblers who couldn’t care less, as long as they can play.

    There were a few however, back then in 2004, who didn’t like what they saw. They were perceived as a threat to many. A battle on the forum emerged, and even though there were some who acknowledged the injustice of some of the things that went on, the threat that was emerging to the viability of betting exchanges in general, inefficiencies, most didn’t speak out. It was a tough environment, but it was fun…

    It was inevitable – betfair would at some point make a mistake, a huge misjudgement, as we can see now with one of the biggest fuck ups in corporate history. The betfair staff were destined to make a miscalculation of such proportion because of their inability to focus on the consumer. They never had to….

    For me, it’s kind of ironic that they should choose the income tax, of all things. It’s probably the only thing that can take them down in the near term.

    All of this is truly amazing.

  3. Medemi said:

    Betfair have just removed a thread called “Adonis and Medemi views on premium charges”, with a link in it to this page. No rules were broken. It survived for 2 hours. I think we should take that (the removal) as a compliment.

  4. Medemi said:

    Maybe it is about time someone made an effort to do to them what betfair are doing to us, and teach them a lesson. I mean, you have to get to a point where one is fed up with all the lies, manipulation and suppression of free speech.

    It wouldn’t be that hard to make a video that would disgust even the mainstream media, and make it look like it came from betfair, make it sound like it came from betfair. Manipulation is a dangerous ground to walk on, and I’ve always been honest and truthful, but when your opponent keeps using dirty tricks to influence the public opinion (in a way that doesn’t benefit the consumer) you have to wonder whether the time has come where you say “Enough is enough! Now, we’ll play your game”.

  5. Adonis said:

    +Once censorship is  used, like heroin, it is difficult not to use it again. Like a heroin addict, the censorship addict feels completely in control and at ease with his choice. Only when his downhill riot is advanced does it become heinously horrid to the casual observer. They are, by then, usually well beyond recall or salvation.

    The only good news is that they expire quickly thereafter and don’t suffer terribly for very long. We don’t want to be cruel to them in their suffering, do we?

    But they invariably die penniless and CERTAINLY would be laughed out of Town if they attempted to sell stock against ther “ASSETS”!!!!!

    *** For those using the betfair organ and wishing to tease the Censor General and Chief Propaganda Director: Get wise!!!

    Even in 2004, regulars learned that “contentious” posts usually last at LEAST a week-end if you hold fire and send them in after 7 pm on Friday evening.

    Perhaps “They who must be obeyed” are busy slapping each other’s backs at the Hammersmith watering hole early Friday evenings, most weeks……?

    But don’t feel you need to risk upsetting Big Brother unnecessarily.

    We don’t NEED help out here.

    We just want a few more to peep at the highly-extolled Emperor’s clothes……….. there’s a BIG surprise nearby!!!!!

    Adonis.

    Yes….THAT Adonis

  6. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    tbh, I don’t know which is worse, for betfair as a company. Extracting customers funds (the new matching algorithm) and kill the exchange idea, charge a tax and kill the punter’s dream, or the act of censorship and create powerful enemies. But it would be me dumping betfair’s stock in panic mode if I had any.

    One thing is for sure, it won’t come as a surprise when betfair go down. Maybe, by that time, we have already forgotten about them. Because this story will have been told before we finish reading it.

  7. Adonis said:

    Medemi,

    maybe we should instigate a sweepstake entitled “nominate 5 things that betfair did RIGHT from a Customer’s perspective, and you will scoop the pool!

    Or maybe the pool would be almost as difficult to scoop if we made it even easier:  “nominate ANYTHING that betfair did right from a Customer’s perspective……”etc etc etc.

    I genuinely hold the opinion that their demise is now inevitable, if not probably immediate, and feel no sorrow whatsoever for as many as possible of their sycophants getting drowned in the wake. They should, by now, understand the untenable nature of their beliefs. But don’t. Or won’t. Their problem now, not ours…..

    .

    I eagerly await a “white knight” who will establish a TRULY Customer-oriented beting exchange where P2P betting is not merely voiced, but actually IMPLEMENTED without recourse to Abstraction of Customer Funds (other than by simply-defined, easily-calculable commission).

    Come on Sir Richard Branson!!!! I thought you understood a gilt-edged opportunity????

    The Virgin Exchange has a certain “attraction” to it, after all!!!!!…….

    Sorry, just couldn’t resist the joke.

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis.

  8. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    betdaq will have a forum soon. We should have a look, at give these poeple here a rest.

    If you’re still up for the task… you’re getting old. :-D

  9. Adonis said:

    Take a look at the movies that this thread points to.

    Absolutely hilarious.

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=24

    And remember…. many a true word is said in jest.

    BTW Medemi, I have been placing bits of business with Betdaq for many months. Not a perfect solution, but they haven’t tried to bully me yet! I have some misgivings about why no matter WHAT you try, your offers seem to get matched nearer poor odds than best; or the odds drift away from your offer with no match.

    A bit too often to instil confidence….they have work to do speeding up responses, but better to trust a snail than a cheetah. Snails don’t bite, and even if you don’t like the slime, you can see them coming and get out of the way……….

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis

  10. Adonis said:

    Ah! Bremner, Bird and Fortune. British classics.

    Bird used to do sketches in the classics “That was the week that was” and others, with David Frost et al, decades ago. I’m a regular patron of the shows here. (You should know that the Bird and Fortune political skits are done “ad lib”, so represent a regular display of highest-quality talent. They are probably Britains best-ever political “charicaturists”.)

    Bremner (senior player in the shows) is the best political impressionist we’ve ever had – and we’ve had some real good ones! Unfortunately, none of the betfair directors are famous enough for him to do a skit on them. Shame! It woukld be sooooo funny to see such a show competing with the real-life comedy emanating from Hammersmith, daily!

    Adonis.

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  11. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    I thought you would like it. I’ve watched this video 4 times now, and it gets better every time.

    We don’t have that in Holland, or perhaps a poor attempt at it. We are a very sober people, but at least it won’t get us into trouble that easily.

    A lot of your comedy shows are well known here, Fawlty Towers being the biggest of all time. We import your comedy and send you flowers. :-)

    Have a nice weekend.

  12. Medemi said:

    Good morning. In less than a day, people from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest battle in the history of mankind. “Mankind.” That word should have new meaning for all of us tomorrow. We can’t be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it’s fate that tomorrow is the 22nd of September, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom… Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution… but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to bet. To exist. And should we win the day, the 22nd of September will no longer be known as a British holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: “We will not be subjected to income tax!” We will not pay without a fight! We’re going to live on! We’re going to survive! Tomorrow we celebrate our….

    http://www.allposters.com/-sp/…..37819_.htm

  13. Medemi said:

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=48

    Give it up Magician, it won’t work. I told you at the time your idea was stupid. I remember calling you a troll because in my wildest dreams I couldn’t imagine someone with that much experience to be so wrong… I even gave you the right arguments at the time. And now betfair will pay, because of their greediness and their inability to focus on the consumer (like yourself, I can add now). I will sleep comfortably in the notion that is was you who caused so much damage to betfair, friend. That was never my intention. But let the facts speak for themselves as they will soon reveal that it was I who was right, and betfair should have listened to me in stead of banning me from the forum. But the betfair staff don’t know any better because they live in this cocoon, and have been for quite a while.

    Your rescue package is an idle attempt to try and rescue betfair. You disgust people, because of your dependence on betfair. You need the liquidity, and I know you’re one of the big winners. I also know they won’t be charging you. Yes, I’ve predicted this as well, to our mutual friend.

    Maybe I will some day meet you at the ‘Daq after liquidity dries up on betfair, at which point I’m not sure whether I should shake your hand or kick your butt. It will probably be the latter.

    The truth will haunt you my friend, as it will haunt betfair. And I’m still alive to tell you about it, like a ghost that simply won’t go away.

  14. Adonis said:

    PANDORA’S BOX DECLARED OPEN !!!!!!

    See the u-tubes!

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Q_kyCjbXg

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=…..re=related

    … and others listed nearby these!!!

    Complaints, creative thinking and even downright insolence towards those who believe they can push Consumers around ad nauseum is now HISTORY!!!!

    I find it difficult to believe that even betfair will be able to silence this level of Consumer back-pressure.

    There ain’t a Thought Police Force in the World that have enough resources to investigate, castigate, persecute  and/or prosecute the sheer potential volume of dissent and discontent.

    Well done Protesters!

    Companies who abuse and abase Consumers had better get ready to pay the price for their assumptiveness…..

    .

    .

    Long live Free Speech.

    .

    Adonis.

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  15. Medemi said:

    I see what you mean Adonis, someone is pulling the rug from under their feet…

    Betfair could always increase tax to 30% to pay for extra expenses.

  16. Adonis said:

    Many a true word is said in jest!

    There’s probably some super-slick, MBA-wielding, graduate at betfair who’s already convinced “der management” that if they get away with this latest tax swinge, they can go all out and forget about taking bets at all… just inform the Customer List that, in return for the privelege of logging in (and being able to post intheir “forum” perhaps too), they must donate 10% of their funds, compounded daily. Lots weill be drawn to decide who might have had big bets that day, and “commission” at an arbitrary rate would be deducted as well from the “lucky” winners……

    In the event of these donations falling below a certain level (perhaps ?20 per day, per Customer), Customers will be expected to replace their abstracted account funds with fresh money, or else face being banned from the forum (in the first instance) and then having their account foreclosed if they continue to be errant.

    What a pity that Bremner, Bird and Fortune aren’t betting types……..

    The comedy would be an automatic CLASSIC!

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  17. Medemi said:

    Adonis, skip to the end. (inside joke)

    http://forums.moneysavingexper…..st14419089

    (Also proof that I have not been banned from MSE, and that someone has been lying to Chris)

  18. Medemi said:

    When is prior knowledge illegal to act upon?

    Adonis then threw petrol on to the fire when recalling similar activity considered fraudulent in the early days of licensed betting shops when certain minor race meetings were not covered by the Extel commentary service and unscrupulous backers would have someone at the course watching 5f races then placing bets at local bookies on the strength of information passed via walkie-talkies before the official result had been phoned in.

    http://www.p2pbetting.com/Arti…..fault.aspx

    The good old days…

  19. Medemi said:

    Not a lot of people understand IMO, but it’s a lack of regulation combined with sheer stupidity that is killing betfair. Haven’t we seen that before recently … ?

  20. Dave said:

    It’ll be interesting to see the spin they put on their big arcade winner. They were desperate to get him for publicity as he won ?11K, only thing was he didn’t even know he was playing with real money as the arcade games dont have separate wallets and it seems you’re playing demo games when you first go in.

    betterluck 24 Sep 12:13

    I am RG. I won on the Arcade without even realiseing that I was playing it for real. It is unbelievabley easy to log-in to see what the fuss is about, select to play a Demo game and then navigate to a new game where you are playing for real. I honestly thought i was playing with imaginary money. I would never dream of playing in the Arcade with real money. Playing for a grand a spin I won about 14k and gave 9 back all in the space of 3 minutes. I am delighted that i got bored after that long.

    Obviously I have been very lucky and done well out of this but there are 2 points that are very worrying. Firstly and most importantly it should be far more difficult to “accidentally” play these games. Not being aware that you are playing may be a little stupid but if I could make that mistake then I am sure others could.

    Secondly is the nature of the games, I was able to turn over roughly 20k in 3 minutes. Even when I won it was ready to press the button to bet again in 5 seconds. These games are highly addictive and repetitive. In the past I would have expected more of Betfair but now I am not at all surprised. I have voiced my concerns to my account manager but dont expect anything to change. Betfair dont listen to their customers anymore because they honestly dont care although there are still a very many good people still working there.

  21. Chris F. Masse said:

    Dave,

    Give us the URL of that testimony, please.

  22. Adonis said:

    It’s the sort of thread that might get pulled at any time, Chris. We can’t tell anymore what they want to silence.

    But it’s still there as I write, at

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=22

    If you want to stay safe, it’s a good idea to take a copy of the actual text (not just the URL). In my book, anyone who’s prepared to unilaterally censor other people’s views just might be inclined to deny even the existence of said views, in print, once they have been erased.

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  23. Medemi said:

    Oh my… the Gambling God really is after betfair. There is no luck left for them. What’s next ?

  24. Adonis said:

    Revenge is a dish best served cold……. there seems to be a lot of folks out there waiting to fill their refrigerators…….

    As my Grannie used to say “you made your bed; you lie on it!”

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis

  25. Medemi said:

    The funny thing is, betfair are trying to attract the average mediocre gambler to their site, yet they expect us to fully understand the complexity of the premium charges. Well, I don’t understand the rules, in part because I haven’t read them in full, and because they are not going to mess with my brain.

  26. Medemi said:

    I should add, from experience, usually when I don’t understand something, something is wrong with it. With it, not with me. That goes for a lot of people, not just me, and it’s simply a matter of how you look at things.

  27. Adonis said:

    The betfair vernacular for the “trading” process is “greening up”, so that the client sees a profit (ie: green numbers) for EVERY eventuality, BEFORE the Event is actually decided. Since its inception, betfair has a track record of extolling this type of client, calling them “Sharp Minds” and ensuring that they (They??) made most benefits of the entire Clientele. They were seen as perhaps the ONLY source of liquidity and  they became betfair demigods in ther own right. Commission is paid only on the nett profit from such trading activity, NOT on the “turnover”!

    In 2004, I created waves on the betfair “forum” by postulating (it was only, at that Time, an hypothesis!) that this betfair-consecrated and betfair-encouraged process of “greening up” was actually discreetly abstracting a proportion of Clients’ wagers (think of it as an inherrent Tax!)

    In un-auditable fashion.

    I called the missing money “Destination Invariant Funds” meaning that once “greened up” the money so collected was NO LONGER DEPENDENT on the Event outcome, even though the Event itself was still undecided. I particularly criticised betfair for continuing the myth that the ONLY “charge” that would be levied on their Client funds was the betfair commission. Furthermore, there was NO WAY in which the proportion of such Abstracted Funds could be assessed – a “feature” which continues TO THIS DAY. I postulated that this levy might be as much as 30% of the sum “matched” shown on their routine betting pages; that it might be BIGGER than the amount of money remaining as Result-Dependent!

    I gave examples, at the Time, of how it was ENTIRELY possible that huge amounts could be shown as “matched”, whilst the actual amount which would be distributed to punters who correctly wagered on the Event Result might be (relatively) trivial. So, in theory at least, it can be that the sums published as “matched” (with the inference that this is the sum of all Event Result-dependent wagers, which it ISN’T!) are actually irrelevant and also actually meaningless to a punter (or even a Regulator, IMHO!) Neither does it betray the percentage of inherrent levy which the aforesaid abstractions represent.

    In short, a Client cannot determine what proportion of his money (which he puts up as an offer to bet or lay) will be abstracted by these “Sharp Minds”.

    The punter is encouraged to believe that he is betting on a “Person-to-Person betting exchange (TV advertising cementing this too…..) but – as betfair admitted in the aftermath of its last Client PR scandal (the “skimming affair”) – betfair are, in fact, licenced bookmakers, and feel perfectly entitled to not only allow some of its Clientele to trade in that manner, but also to trade in that manner, ITSELF.

    …….With  the added attraction of effectively suspending competing bet/lay matches between Clients, whilst betfair itself arranged complex matching – which also provided the opportunity to abstract funds AT NO RISK TO BETFAIR. (Betfair spokespeoples’ words….not mine!!!!)

    The ONLY way to ensure that such matches can be done at no risk is to effectively “freeze the clock”.

    I think that there is little remaining doubt that “freezing the clock” can generally be reduced (logically) to, at the very least, a degeneration of Betting Integrity standards, and – in the wrong hands – an open invitation, or even “passport” to fraudulent practices.

    .

    …… I was barred from discussing such things on the betfair organ, in 2005.

    Others followed me.

    In 2008, betfair closed my account. And refused to cite any detailed reason for that closure, or provide any form of arbitration process which would enable me to remain using what was (then at least!) an effective Virtual Monopoly in that form of wagering.

    So…….. I am like the proverbial dog with two tails at betfair’s current discomfort.

    I owe them NO loyalty at all.

    They owe me (IMHO) apology and recompense for treating me as they did, and I will pursue AT ALL TIMES every opportunity to highlight their (IMHO) flagrant disregard for some Betting Integrity issues, directly, with the British Gambling Commission.

    (As a matter of course, I routinely inform betfair when I submit my observations, opinions and recommendations to the Gambling Commission. I relish them seeing the course which their actions impose.)

    .

    So…. dear betfair, as a former “forum” poster and former Customer my message is short and sweet:

    You made your bed; now go and lie on it!

    Revenge is a dish best served cold, and right now, it’s more appetising than the coldest ice cream!

    .

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  28. Medemi said:

    Betfair’s customer base are the easiest people in the world to take advantage of. You have those who team up with the exchange (in their minds) and form a symbiotic relationship, happily exploiting any loopholes betfair provide. And there is this other large group of gamblers who couldn’t care less, as long as they can play.

    There were a few however, back then in 2004, who didn’t like what they saw. They were perceived as a threat to many. A battle on the forum emerged, and even though there were some who acknowledged the injustice of some of the things that went on, the threat that was emerging to the viability of betting exchanges in general, inefficiencies, most didn’t speak out. It was a tough environment, but it was fun…

    It was inevitable – betfair would at some point make a mistake, a huge misjudgement, as we can see now with one of the biggest fuck ups in corporate history. The betfair staff were destined to make a miscalculation of such proportion because of their inability to focus on the consumer. They never had to….

    For me, it’s kind of ironic that they should choose the income tax, of all things. It’s probably the only thing that can take them down in the near term.

    All of this is truly amazing.

  29. Medemi said:

    Betfair have just removed a thread called “Adonis and Medemi views on premium charges”, with a link in it to this page. No rules were broken. It survived for 2 hours. I think we should take that (the removal) as a compliment.

  30. Medemi said:

    Maybe it is about time someone made an effort to do to them what betfair are doing to us, and teach them a lesson. I mean, you have to get to a point where one is fed up with all the lies, manipulation and suppression of free speech.

    It wouldn’t be that hard to make a video that would disgust even the mainstream media, and make it look like it came from betfair, make it sound like it came from betfair. Manipulation is a dangerous ground to walk on, and I’ve always been honest and truthful, but when your opponent keeps using dirty tricks to influence the public opinion (in a way that doesn’t benefit the consumer) you have to wonder whether the time has come where you say “Enough is enough! Now, we’ll play your game”.

  31. Adonis said:

    +Once censorship is  used, like heroin, it is difficult not to use it again. Like a heroin addict, the censorship addict feels completely in control and at ease with his choice. Only when his downhill riot is advanced does it become heinously horrid to the casual observer. They are, by then, usually well beyond recall or salvation.

    The only good news is that they expire quickly thereafter and don’t suffer terribly for very long. We don’t want to be cruel to them in their suffering, do we?

    But they invariably die penniless and CERTAINLY would be laughed out of Town if they attempted to sell stock against ther “ASSETS”!!!!!

    *** For those using the betfair organ and wishing to tease the Censor General and Chief Propaganda Director: Get wise!!!

    Even in 2004, regulars learned that “contentious” posts usually last at LEAST a week-end if you hold fire and send them in after 7 pm on Friday evening.

    Perhaps “They who must be obeyed” are busy slapping each other’s backs at the Hammersmith watering hole early Friday evenings, most weeks……?

    But don’t feel you need to risk upsetting Big Brother unnecessarily.

    We don’t NEED help out here.

    We just want a few more to peep at the highly-extolled Emperor’s clothes……….. there’s a BIG surprise nearby!!!!!

    Adonis.

    Yes….THAT Adonis

  32. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    tbh, I don’t know which is worse, for betfair as a company. Extracting customers funds (the new matching algorithm) and kill the exchange idea, charge a tax and kill the punter’s dream, or the act of censorship and create powerful enemies. But it would be me dumping betfair’s stock in panic mode if I had any.

    One thing is for sure, it won’t come as a surprise when betfair go down. Maybe, by that time, we have already forgotten about them. Because this story will have been told before we finish reading it.

  33. Adonis said:

    Medemi,

    maybe we should instigate a sweepstake entitled “nominate 5 things that betfair did RIGHT from a Customer’s perspective, and you will scoop the pool!

    Or maybe the pool would be almost as difficult to scoop if we made it even easier:  “nominate ANYTHING that betfair did right from a Customer’s perspective……”etc etc etc.

    I genuinely hold the opinion that their demise is now inevitable, if not probably immediate, and feel no sorrow whatsoever for as many as possible of their sycophants getting drowned in the wake. They should, by now, understand the untenable nature of their beliefs. But don’t. Or won’t. Their problem now, not ours…..

    .

    I eagerly await a “white knight” who will establish a TRULY Customer-oriented beting exchange where P2P betting is not merely voiced, but actually IMPLEMENTED without recourse to Abstraction of Customer Funds (other than by simply-defined, easily-calculable commission).

    Come on Sir Richard Branson!!!! I thought you understood a gilt-edged opportunity????

    The Virgin Exchange has a certain “attraction” to it, after all!!!!!…….

    Sorry, just couldn’t resist the joke.

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis.

  34. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    betdaq will have a forum soon. We should have a look, at give these poeple here a rest.

    If you’re still up for the task… you’re getting old. :-D

  35. Adonis said:

    Take a look at the movies that this thread points to.

    Absolutely hilarious.

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=24

    And remember…. many a true word is said in jest.

    BTW Medemi, I have been placing bits of business with Betdaq for many months. Not a perfect solution, but they haven’t tried to bully me yet! I have some misgivings about why no matter WHAT you try, your offers seem to get matched nearer poor odds than best; or the odds drift away from your offer with no match.

    A bit too often to instil confidence….they have work to do speeding up responses, but better to trust a snail than a cheetah. Snails don’t bite, and even if you don’t like the slime, you can see them coming and get out of the way……….

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis

  36. Adonis said:

    Ah! Bremner, Bird and Fortune. British classics.

    Bird used to do sketches in the classics “That was the week that was” and others, with David Frost et al, decades ago. I’m a regular patron of the shows here. (You should know that the Bird and Fortune political skits are done “ad lib”, so represent a regular display of highest-quality talent. They are probably Britains best-ever political “charicaturists”.)

    Bremner (senior player in the shows) is the best political impressionist we’ve ever had – and we’ve had some real good ones! Unfortunately, none of the betfair directors are famous enough for him to do a skit on them. Shame! It woukld be sooooo funny to see such a show competing with the real-life comedy emanating from Hammersmith, daily!

    Adonis.

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  37. Medemi said:

    Adonis,

    I thought you would like it. I’ve watched this video 4 times now, and it gets better every time.

    We don’t have that in Holland, or perhaps a poor attempt at it. We are a very sober people, but at least it won’t get us into trouble that easily.

    A lot of your comedy shows are well known here, Fawlty Towers being the biggest of all time. We import your comedy and send you flowers. :-)

    Have a nice weekend.

  38. Medemi said:

    Good morning. In less than a day, people from here will join others from around the world. And you will be launching the largest battle in the history of mankind. “Mankind.” That word should have new meaning for all of us tomorrow. We can’t be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it’s fate that tomorrow is the 22nd of September, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom… Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution… but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to bet. To exist. And should we win the day, the 22nd of September will no longer be known as a British holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: “We will not be subjected to income tax!” We will not pay without a fight! We’re going to live on! We’re going to survive! Tomorrow we celebrate our….

    http://www.allposters.com/-sp/…..37819_.htm

  39. Medemi said:

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=48

    Give it up Magician, it won’t work. I told you at the time your idea was stupid. I remember calling you a troll because in my wildest dreams I couldn’t imagine someone with that much experience to be so wrong… I even gave you the right arguments at the time. And now betfair will pay, because of their greediness and their inability to focus on the consumer (like yourself, I can add now). I will sleep comfortably in the notion that is was you who caused so much damage to betfair, friend. That was never my intention. But let the facts speak for themselves as they will soon reveal that it was I who was right, and betfair should have listened to me in stead of banning me from the forum. But the betfair staff don’t know any better because they live in this cocoon, and have been for quite a while.

    Your rescue package is an idle attempt to try and rescue betfair. You disgust people, because of your dependence on betfair. You need the liquidity, and I know you’re one of the big winners. I also know they won’t be charging you. Yes, I’ve predicted this as well, to our mutual friend.

    Maybe I will some day meet you at the ‘Daq after liquidity dries up on betfair, at which point I’m not sure whether I should shake your hand or kick your butt. It will probably be the latter.

    The truth will haunt you my friend, as it will haunt betfair. And I’m still alive to tell you about it, like a ghost that simply won’t go away.

  40. Adonis said:

    PANDORA’S BOX DECLARED OPEN !!!!!!

    See the u-tubes!

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=f-Q_kyCjbXg

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=…..re=related

    … and others listed nearby these!!!

    Complaints, creative thinking and even downright insolence towards those who believe they can push Consumers around ad nauseum is now HISTORY!!!!

    I find it difficult to believe that even betfair will be able to silence this level of Consumer back-pressure.

    There ain’t a Thought Police Force in the World that have enough resources to investigate, castigate, persecute  and/or prosecute the sheer potential volume of dissent and discontent.

    Well done Protesters!

    Companies who abuse and abase Consumers had better get ready to pay the price for their assumptiveness…..

    .

    .

    Long live Free Speech.

    .

    Adonis.

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  41. Medemi said:

    I see what you mean Adonis, someone is pulling the rug from under their feet…

    Betfair could always increase tax to 30% to pay for extra expenses.

  42. Adonis said:

    Many a true word is said in jest!

    There’s probably some super-slick, MBA-wielding, graduate at betfair who’s already convinced “der management” that if they get away with this latest tax swinge, they can go all out and forget about taking bets at all… just inform the Customer List that, in return for the privelege of logging in (and being able to post intheir “forum” perhaps too), they must donate 10% of their funds, compounded daily. Lots weill be drawn to decide who might have had big bets that day, and “commission” at an arbitrary rate would be deducted as well from the “lucky” winners……

    In the event of these donations falling below a certain level (perhaps ?20 per day, per Customer), Customers will be expected to replace their abstracted account funds with fresh money, or else face being banned from the forum (in the first instance) and then having their account foreclosed if they continue to be errant.

    What a pity that Bremner, Bird and Fortune aren’t betting types……..

    The comedy would be an automatic CLASSIC!

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  43. Medemi said:

    Adonis, skip to the end. (inside joke)

    http://forums.moneysavingexper…..st14419089

    (Also proof that I have not been banned from MSE, and that someone has been lying to Chris)

  44. Medemi said:

    When is prior knowledge illegal to act upon?

    Adonis then threw petrol on to the fire when recalling similar activity considered fraudulent in the early days of licensed betting shops when certain minor race meetings were not covered by the Extel commentary service and unscrupulous backers would have someone at the course watching 5f races then placing bets at local bookies on the strength of information passed via walkie-talkies before the official result had been phoned in.

    http://www.p2pbetting.com/Arti…..fault.aspx

    The good old days…

  45. Medemi said:

    Not a lot of people understand IMO, but it’s a lack of regulation combined with sheer stupidity that is killing betfair. Haven’t we seen that before recently … ?

  46. Dave said:

    It’ll be interesting to see the spin they put on their big arcade winner. They were desperate to get him for publicity as he won ?11K, only thing was he didn’t even know he was playing with real money as the arcade games dont have separate wallets and it seems you’re playing demo games when you first go in.

    betterluck 24 Sep 12:13

    I am RG. I won on the Arcade without even realiseing that I was playing it for real. It is unbelievabley easy to log-in to see what the fuss is about, select to play a Demo game and then navigate to a new game where you are playing for real. I honestly thought i was playing with imaginary money. I would never dream of playing in the Arcade with real money. Playing for a grand a spin I won about 14k and gave 9 back all in the space of 3 minutes. I am delighted that i got bored after that long.

    Obviously I have been very lucky and done well out of this but there are 2 points that are very worrying. Firstly and most importantly it should be far more difficult to “accidentally” play these games. Not being aware that you are playing may be a little stupid but if I could make that mistake then I am sure others could.

    Secondly is the nature of the games, I was able to turn over roughly 20k in 3 minutes. Even when I won it was ready to press the button to bet again in 5 seconds. These games are highly addictive and repetitive. In the past I would have expected more of Betfair but now I am not at all surprised. I have voiced my concerns to my account manager but dont expect anything to change. Betfair dont listen to their customers anymore because they honestly dont care although there are still a very many good people still working there.

  47. Chris F. Masse said:

    Dave,

    Give us the URL of that testimony, please.

  48. Adonis said:

    It’s the sort of thread that might get pulled at any time, Chris. We can’t tell anymore what they want to silence.

    But it’s still there as I write, at

    http://site.forum.betfair.com/…..geCount=22

    If you want to stay safe, it’s a good idea to take a copy of the actual text (not just the URL). In my book, anyone who’s prepared to unilaterally censor other people’s views just might be inclined to deny even the existence of said views, in print, once they have been erased.

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis!

  49. Medemi said:

    Oh my… the Gambling God really is after betfair. There is no luck left for them. What’s next ?

  50. Adonis said:

    Revenge is a dish best served cold……. there seems to be a lot of folks out there waiting to fill their refrigerators…….

    As my Grannie used to say “you made your bed; you lie on it!”

    Adonis

    Yes, THAT Adonis

  51. Medemi said:

    The funny thing is, betfair are trying to attract the average mediocre gambler to their site, yet they expect us to fully understand the complexity of the premium charges. Well, I don’t understand the rules, in part because I haven’t read them in full, and because they are not going to mess with my brain.

  52. Medemi said:

    I should add, from experience, usually when I don’t understand something, something is wrong with it. With it, not with me. That goes for a lot of people, not just me, and it’s simply a matter of how you look at things.

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