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	<title>Comments on: Building Exits into CFTC Regulation</title>
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	<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/</link>
	<description>Prediction Markets For All</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: COMMENTS TO THE CFTC: What to expect from Tom W. Bell and Jason Ruspini &#124; Midas Oracle .ORG</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-19483</link>
		<dc:creator>COMMENTS TO THE CFTC: What to expect from Tom W. Bell and Jason Ruspini &#124; Midas Oracle .ORG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-19483</guid>
		<description>[...] By doing so, he will tell the CFTC to go fugging themselves &#8212;since the CFTC is allegedly about &#8220;contracts&#8221;, not about &#8220;notes&#8221;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] By doing so, he will tell the CFTC to go fugging themselves &#8212;since the CFTC is allegedly about &#8220;contracts&#8221;, not about &#8220;notes&#8221;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18822</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 23:01:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18822</guid>
		<description>Yes, these approaches could be complementary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, these approaches could be complementary.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom W. Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18797</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom W. Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 22:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18797</guid>
		<description>Jason:  You present a very sound approach to the problem of figuring out the legal status of prediction markets.  I support both that *and* other approaches.  I think we need competition between different regulatory regimes in order to discern which works best.  If the CFTC pulls a Hedgestreet on us, I want to make sure we can escape.  Hence the title and theme of this post.

I see what you mean about *commodities,* but I am not talking about those.  I'm talking about *markets*--"exempt markets," to be precise.  As there are no such things as "excluded markets," so that usage would err.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason:  You present a very sound approach to the problem of figuring out the legal status of prediction markets.  I support both that *and* other approaches.  I think we need competition between different regulatory regimes in order to discern which works best.  If the CFTC pulls a Hedgestreet on us, I want to make sure we can escape.  Hence the title and theme of this post.</p>
<p>I see what you mean about *commodities,* but I am not talking about those.  I&#8217;m talking about *markets*&#8211;&#8221;exempt markets,&#8221; to be precise.  As there are no such things as &#8220;excluded markets,&#8221; so that usage would err.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18796</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 18:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18796</guid>
		<description>I'm not presuming that.  I'm just saying that you will have to jump through a second set of hoops, including some state-level hoops engulfed in flames.  The example of Hedgestreet is very disturbing but would CFTC jurisdiction really be THAT awful?  There would be other benefits too such as anti-manipulation and anti-fraud enforcement.  
.
I  do appreciate the several reasons and principles that  inform your opinion and the work you've done on this topic, but I guess I have a different sense of the cost/benefit analysis, and find CFTC regulation to be a more natural and robust option compared to a basket of legal "hacks".  I'm sick of legal ambiguity and I view a basket of hacks (even if I agree with them in principle) as just perpetuating that ambiguity, leading me to trade at lower levels than I want to, if at all.
.
Also I am just referring to the definitions of "excluded" and "exempt" commodities in the CEA, but I guess you are using exempt in a less technical sense, which is what i thought originally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not presuming that.  I&#8217;m just saying that you will have to jump through a second set of hoops, including some state-level hoops engulfed in flames.  The example of Hedgestreet is very disturbing but would CFTC jurisdiction really be THAT awful?  There would be other benefits too such as anti-manipulation and anti-fraud enforcement.<br />
.<br />
I  do appreciate the several reasons and principles that  inform your opinion and the work you&#8217;ve done on this topic, but I guess I have a different sense of the cost/benefit analysis, and find CFTC regulation to be a more natural and robust option compared to a basket of legal &#8220;hacks&#8221;.  I&#8217;m sick of legal ambiguity and I view a basket of hacks (even if I agree with them in principle) as just perpetuating that ambiguity, leading me to trade at lower levels than I want to, if at all.<br />
.<br />
Also I am just referring to the definitions of &#8220;excluded&#8221; and &#8220;exempt&#8221; commodities in the CEA, but I guess you are using exempt in a less technical sense, which is what i thought originally.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom W. Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18795</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom W. Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 16:50:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18795</guid>
		<description>Jason:  You evidently presume that prediction markets offer gambling.  I rather doubt that a court would agree, leastwise so long as a market steers clear of sports claims.  But I'll agree that some risk of prosecution remains; so goes life in general and the law in particular.

I still don't understand what you're getting at with regard to "exempt," given that I'm talking only about a certain regulatory classification--exempt markets--and not about commodities of any particular type.  So I think my usage comports with that of the CEA and the CFTC.  There is no such thing as a "excluded market," after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason:  You evidently presume that prediction markets offer gambling.  I rather doubt that a court would agree, leastwise so long as a market steers clear of sports claims.  But I&#8217;ll agree that some risk of prosecution remains; so goes life in general and the law in particular.</p>
<p>I still don&#8217;t understand what you&#8217;re getting at with regard to &#8220;exempt,&#8221; given that I&#8217;m talking only about a certain regulatory classification&#8211;exempt markets&#8211;and not about commodities of any particular type.  So I think my usage comports with that of the CEA and the CFTC.  There is no such thing as a &#8220;excluded market,&#8221; after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18792</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 11:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18792</guid>
		<description>If someone wants to jump through hoops to evade the CFTC in order to then have the joy of dealing with gambling laws, they can be my guest.  Heck, if someone has a real legal plan, I might even invest.
.
Yes, I just meant to point out that you weren't using "exempt" in the sense that the CEA uses it.. that is, a non-agricultural, non-statutory commodity.
 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If someone wants to jump through hoops to evade the CFTC in order to then have the joy of dealing with gambling laws, they can be my guest.  Heck, if someone has a real legal plan, I might even invest.<br />
.<br />
Yes, I just meant to point out that you weren&#8217;t using &#8220;exempt&#8221; in the sense that the CEA uses it.. that is, a non-agricultural, non-statutory commodity.<br />
 <br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Tom W. Bell</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18780</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom W. Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 03:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18780</guid>
		<description>jsalvati:  How can I disagree?

Jason:  I draw a different, more general lesson from Zelener.  It stands for the proposition that parties can avoid CFTC jurisdiction by carefully stepping outside what ought to be clearly defined boundaries.  That's true even if the transactions in question function much like the sorts of transactions the CFTC properly regulates.  As the Zelener court noted, after all, the Forex transactions in question *did* typical resolve in offsets.  The contracts did not expressly promise to allow for offsets, however, saving them from the CFTC's reach.

My suggestion for dodging the CFTC's jurisdiction operates on a different principle:  By not dealing in contracts but rather in notes.  Those are distinct legal entities, ones that competent attorneys and courts have no trouble keeping apart.  And, importantly, the CFTC has no jurisdiction over transactions in notes.

Thanks for asking, but I really did mean to say "exempt markets."  Some such markets deal in "excluded" commodities, which must be what you were thinking of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jsalvati:  How can I disagree?</p>
<p>Jason:  I draw a different, more general lesson from Zelener.  It stands for the proposition that parties can avoid CFTC jurisdiction by carefully stepping outside what ought to be clearly defined boundaries.  That&#8217;s true even if the transactions in question function much like the sorts of transactions the CFTC properly regulates.  As the Zelener court noted, after all, the Forex transactions in question *did* typical resolve in offsets.  The contracts did not expressly promise to allow for offsets, however, saving them from the CFTC&#8217;s reach.</p>
<p>My suggestion for dodging the CFTC&#8217;s jurisdiction operates on a different principle:  By not dealing in contracts but rather in notes.  Those are distinct legal entities, ones that competent attorneys and courts have no trouble keeping apart.  And, importantly, the CFTC has no jurisdiction over transactions in notes.</p>
<p>Thanks for asking, but I really did mean to say &#8220;exempt markets.&#8221;  Some such markets deal in &#8220;excluded&#8221; commodities, which must be what you were thinking of.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18773</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 22:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18773</guid>
		<description>Regarding the Zelener case, if the traders had the right to offset their positions (that is, exit them before settlement) the forwards would have been considered futures contracts and within the CFTC's jurisdiction.  So in order to escape CFTC jurisdiction by qualifying as "spot" otc for retail traders, those traders can't exit their positions.  I.e. they can't trade.
.
http://www.futuresindustry.org/fi-magazine-home.asp?iss=147&#38;a=961
.
The CFTC and NFA are working to close the Zelener loophole and will probably do so by 2010 although they seem to be doing it in such a way that will only affect margined/levered traders. [5/23 Update: It was already in.. somehow I missed this on thomas.gov the first time.]
.
Also I think you technically mean "excluded" instead of "exempt" commodities, which is the reason for the scare quotes there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the Zelener case, if the traders had the right to offset their positions (that is, exit them before settlement) the forwards would have been considered futures contracts and within the CFTC&#8217;s jurisdiction.  So in order to escape CFTC jurisdiction by qualifying as &#8220;spot&#8221; otc for retail traders, those traders can&#8217;t exit their positions.  I.e. they can&#8217;t trade.<br />
.<br />
<a href="http://www.futuresindustry.org/fi-magazine-home.asp?iss=147&amp;a=961">http://www.futuresindustry.org.....&amp;a=961</a><br />
.<br />
The CFTC and NFA are working to close the Zelener loophole and will probably do so by 2010 although they seem to be doing it in such a way that will only affect margined/levered traders. [5/23 Update: It was already in.. somehow I missed this on thomas.gov the first time.]<br />
.<br />
Also I think you technically mean &#8220;excluded&#8221; instead of &#8220;exempt&#8221; commodities, which is the reason for the scare quotes there?</p>
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		<title>By: jsalvati</title>
		<link>http://www.midasoracle.org/2008/05/20/building-exits-into-cftc-regulation/#comment-18737</link>
		<dc:creator>jsalvati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 06:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midasoracle.org/?p=6939#comment-18737</guid>
		<description>Very cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cool.</p>
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